MOD: Section #6 is officially over. We now begin with Dr. Panzer giving his opening statement on topic # 6: Which is the superior governance document – the FFWPU CIG Constitution or the SC CIG Constitution – and why?
RP: Regarding the Unification Sanctuary Constitution, I like the fact that it first of all is based on the 3 articles that Father proclaimed of keeping purity, not misusing funds, and not abusing citizens. Second, it incorporates a clear role for the King that Father anointed. Father said that democracy is based on "popularism" meaning that eventually the elected leaders, in order to keep and to increase their power vote to give benefits to special interest groups, even when it damages the well-being of the whole. In the Sanctuary constitution, the King has a role in approving judges recommended by the Senate, but has no power to declare war and no power over spending. In other words, it is similar in some ways to a Constitutional Monarchy in Great Britain. The King's authority is mainly based on his living and advocating a moral life. http://sanctuary-pa.org/index.php/declaration/
DF: The fact that the FFWP constitution can be amended is its saving grace. I cannot accept it as it stands because it does not protect religious freedom and freedom of speech. On the other hand the CIG-USA constitution decreed by the "New King" Moon Hyungjin is even worse, because it gives the king virtually absolute hereditary power, including the exclusive power to appoint Supreme Court Judges, declare a state of emergence and rule by decree, and even the power to overturn laws passed by the Congress and upheld by the Court - that the king himself appointed!
So they are both unacceptable as constitutions of a nation. However, the FFWP version is much better, because it COULD be interpreted as a church constitution rather than a national one. And the FFWP version can be amended, which the SC version cannot.
RP- Regarding the issue of making amendments. Many people note that the American constitutional government has been corrupted as the original limits on federal power have been undermined so that the federal government has virtually no limits on its power to tax, regulate what we eat, what kind of health care we can get, get into wars without a declaration by Congress, etc. The provision about no amendments is intended to avoid the undermining of personal freedoms guaranteed in the Unification Sanctuary Bill of Rights, which are: The Bill of Human Rights of Cheon Il Guk
1.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
2.
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.
3.
No soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.
4.
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
5.
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
6.
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.
7.
In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any court of the worldwide "United States of Cheon Il Gook," than according to the rules of the common law.
8.
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.
9.
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
10.
The powers not delegated to the worldwide "United States of Cheon Il Gook" by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or TO THE PEOPLE. AMEN! AJU! AJU!
DF--If you want to throw out the US Constitution in favor of your New King's monarchy you are free to do so. But know this: Father said he was not interested in becoming a Head of State [see Sontag interview]. HgJn goes against Father's express policy here, but saying the that King is indeed the head of state.
And this is no constitutional monarchy you have, Richard. The King of this monarchy dictated its constitution without consulting the people. Moreover , he alone can nominate Supreme Court judges, and perhaps worst of all he can overturn even Supreme court decisions on appeal. That means if he doesn't like their decision, all he has to do is get someone toappeal the decision so her can overturn it. Ditto for laws passed
by congress -- get someone to challenge them, and if the Court
upholds congress' view, he can overturn their decision on appeal.
So like I say, not an absolute monarchy... but very close to it.
I agree that heredity is a terrible basis for determining a ruler,
especially when the king has more than simply ceremonial
authority... and in this case the king does have serious power.
[as does his brother who is appointed as the very powerful Inspector General together with his heirs].
DF: Even if you think Hyung Jin and Kook Jin are pure as the driven snow, why believe that their sons will also be so virtuous. That certainly wasn't the case with TF's sons. We Americans fought a revolution to get rid of a powerful hereditary monarch. Let's not sell our birthright for the pottage of lentils that HgJn is offering. And let's not make our True Father a liar!
Here is the Sontag interview I mentioned where TF says clear he is not interested in being a head of state. He said "I do not think in terms of taking over the power or government of a nation. I am not ambitious to become a senator or the head of state of this or any other country. But as a messenger of God, my responsibility is to relay the message of God to the people who actually run the country and the society, to those who can actually influence the nation.'' http://www.tparents.org/.../sunmy.../SunMyungMoon-770000.htm
RP: Dan, since I doubt that either the Family Fed constitution or the Unification Sanctuary constitution will be adopted in any country soon, I see them more as declarations, except that the FFWPU constitution has real power over the rights, or lack of rights I should say, of real church members.
DF: They are declarations that indicate political philosophies. And HgJN philosophy must be rejected. As the Divine Principle says: "…. The political system underwent a fundamental change at the time of the French and American Revolutions when the government was divided into the three branches, legislative, judicial and executive, and political parties took on distinct roles. With the establishment of constitutional democracy, the framework for the ideal political system was set up.'' http://www.tparents.org/.../Unifi.../Books/dp96/dp96-2-5.htm
RP: Dan, since I doubt that either the Family Fed constitution or the Unification Sanctuary constitution will be adopted in any country soon, I see them more as declarations.
RP: My last comment about this is to encourage Dan and others to get the FFWPU to list the Divine Principle as a core scripture of CIG (article XIV). We could have a big discussion about why it was left out, but just a suggestion.
DF: closing statement... DP says " With the establishment of constitutional democracy, the framework for the ideal political system was set up." That means we already have the framework for the ideal political system. We don't need a new constitution, especially one that establishes a new hereditary monarchy with nearly absolute power. That means we must reject the SC constitution. The FFWP constitution is also flawed, but it can be remedied to amend it so that it is a church constitution not the constitution of a state.
RP- the Sanctuary constitution incorporates nearly the entire U.S. Constitution, but as Father said, has a limited role for the lineal descendant of the Lord of the Second Advent. The Kingdom of Christ does have a real King, or it is not a Kingdom. As we can see from Hyung Jin Nim's choices to walk away from the wealth and riches of the Cheongpyeong palace he has NO INTEREST in secular power or wealth.
MOD: This concludes section # 6. Now Dan Fefferman will present his opening statement on the final topic, # 7: Is TM perfectly united with TF? Explain why or why not? Further, does TM have the authority to change TF’s legacy items (CSG, anthem, the blessing format, pledge, etc.), or not? Explain your reasoning.
DF: During his Cosmic Assembly speeches in 2011-2012 -- his final speaking tour on earth -- TF proclaimed . ''The True Parents have achieved ultimate unity and offered and proclaimed the era of God's full transcendence, full immanence, full authority and omnipotence upon the standard of perfection, completion and conclusion.'' Ultimate unity means ''ultimate unity,'' -- already achieved... especially when it is stands on the standard of "perfection, completions and conclusion"
In introducing this declaration TF said "… All the blessed children in the heavenly and earthly worlds, who are related to the True Parents by blood, should keep this comprehensive and final proclamation in mind." Any spats or disagreements between TM and TF after that are beside the point. Their unity is eternal, unbreakable, and absolute. HgJn cannot divide them. And neither can Richard Panzer, though no doubt he will try.
RP: Sorry to read that you think Hyung Jin Nim (or I) want to divide True Parents. Hyung Jin Nim desperately tried to persuade Mother NOT to divide from Father. The problem is that Mother sees her "perfection" in having the POWER to undo Father's words, covenants, anthem, etc. but the Divine Principle says that perfection comes through Unity of Subject and Object.
RP: Father clearly said NOT to change the Cheon Syeong Gyeong: Hyo Yul (Peter Kim)! [Yes], Can you say 'Let's leave only good things about the Founder (Reverend) Moon for history? Any bad things I will cover up, I'll take responsibility'. Can you say that? Do I have to follow what you say? Hyo Yul, do you have to listen to me or I have to listen to you? You Villain. I told you to publish this and do everything. But you do what? You yourself want to correct it, proofread? Who is going to proofread? You cannot do that!
Because I knew that it could be so, as soon as I came back I read the whole content in the night. Even today I read it a third time before coming out. No one should touch this! Do not touch even a single word! This must be published as it is.
July 14, 2009, The Criteria for Peace
Vol. 614 p. 53 (Korean) 2009. 7. 14. Cheon Jeong Goong, Korea
RP: Now it is all finished. There is nothing left to touch [change]. I immediately know if someone changes even one syllable [in the text] because I read those textbooks several hundred times. You must memorize it all. ‘Owner of peace, owner of lineage’, Cheon Seong Gyeong, Family Pledge, and the World Scriptures. All the textbooks are included for 12 years of Cheon Il Guk.
July 14, 2009 Hoon Dok Hae
North- South Unification seen from the perspective of God’s Providence Chapter 3, paragraphs 3-6.
The Criteria for Peace Vol. 614 p.53 (Korean)
RP: Father bequeathed the 8 Great Textbooks to his heir and successor on April 18, 2008 and gave copies to all the leaders assembled. He made them promise not to change his words. What did they do immediately after he passed on, THEY FOLLOWED MOTHER'S LEAD TO CHANGE HIS WORDS. They were planning to do this even while Father was dying in the hospital.
DF: Richard A. Panzer... not only does HgJn separate TPs [after he declared them to be completely united and also declared TM to be the top decision maker so there should be no confusion about succession}.... but he also pretends that his own wife is now the True Mother instead of our real True Mother. He calls TM "whore" and "idolator". How can you defend this? He even speaks of "lesbian thelogy. And he has lied about a supposed chart showing that TM teaches that Lucifer had sex with Adam, not Eve.
DF: here's the chart I am talking about -- https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/.../12669576...
and here is the translation of the accompanying text that Hyung Jin has hidden from us for several months.
God wanted to embrace Eve
...
The Archangel Lucifer became Satan when he stole the woman (Eve)
The male (man) who stole the woman whom God loved above all = The adulterer of God – of love A being who cannot be forgiven even if he is hung, drawn and quartered. Fallen human beings have to fight against and overcome.
Hyung Jin lied about this chart for months in an effort to create his myth that TM was teaching a "new DP" -- now we can see the truth... there is no "new DP" no "lebian theology"... the chart teaches the same thing that tradition DP teaches
RP: Dan, I just saw your post. The FFWPU has been denying that this diagram even was being used so it's nice to see you admit that it is being used. If the FFWPU wants to clarify how it is using the diagram then it should do so.
RP: I actually agree with you that the diagram is probably talking about the results of the Fall. But even so, why is Eve OUTSIDE the circle of Satan's influence?
RP: Mother had the freedom to create whatever new collections of speeches she wished, but that wasn't good enough. She had to erase Father's collection by creating a new collection with the same name.
RP: My understanding is that the planning to "airbrush" the CSG started at a meeting at the hotel across from St. Mary's hospital. To believe that this was Father's will you have to believe that while Father was in a coma in the hospital he suddenly realized that the CSG was wrong and need to be replaced with an improved, "politically correct" version even while he was dying.
MOD: Dan Fefferman will now present his closing statement on the final topic, #7, followed by Dr. Panzer's closing statement on same.
DF: that's not true. TM was absolutely devoted to TF and has been working with all her heart to protect his legacy. It's HgJN who ambushed her, not the other way around.
DF my closing statement -- First thanks to Steve Henkin for organizing this, and Richard for working with me to clarify things.
True Mother's heart is absolutely devoted to TF. She is completely united with him, just as TF proclaimed and HgJN himself declared several times. It's time for HgJN to grow up and stop this silly, tragic adolescent rebellion against TM. She's not a whore, she's not an attempted murderer, she's not a Jezebel, she's not an adulteress who has spiritual sex with countless "archangels" as he alleges. HgJn usually goes through a new phase every year or two, so I still have hope for him. But he has to grow up, like St Paul said, and put away childish things now that he is coming into his manhood. He is still a young man, but ...At least he needs to do this by the time he turns 40.
Meanwhile, True Mother has stepped up. She's different from TF, but not divided from him. Mansei for our Eternal True Parents... and Long Live True Mother!
No matter how young or youthful the heir is, he is the one who will supervise and control. Likewise, when the inheritance is passed on, it does not matter who is better or worse. When Father hands down this authority in the future, even if that heir is crippled, people must receive the Blessing from that person. That time will come.
Blessing and Ideal Family I Chapter 4: The process of the Blessing under the selection of the spouse and who determines the spouse.
RP: To believe Dan's statements that that Mother is perfect, incapable of making a providential mistake, and totally united with Father after his passing, we would have to accept that when Father arrived in the spirit world in 2012, he suddenly realized or admitted to himself that
1. He was wrong about Mother coming from a Satanic lineage.
2. He was wrong about Mother needing to meet him as the Second Coming of Christ in order to be restored, that in fact she was sinless from birth.
3. He had failed to sufficiently educate members and the world about Mother’s position as the sinless Only Begotten Daughter who was the fruit of all Christian and Korean history.
4. He was wrong to not educate members about the glorious Han lineage.
5. He was wrong to insist that the CSG not be changed. That it in fact needed to be “improved” by removing inappropriate strong, critical statements about Mother and church leaders.
6. Even though he and Mother had anointed and appointed and reappointed Hyung Jin Nim and Yeonah Nim as the heir/successor/inheritor/resident body couple of True Parents in 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011 and 2012, Father suddenly realized that this couple was not qualified and that the appointment must be revoked or delayed until Mother decided Hyung Jin Nim was obedient to her “innovations.”
7. Father realized that Hyung Jin Nim must be immediately fired from all his positions in Korea.
8. Three months later Father realized that it was wrong for Hyung Jin Nim to teach about Absolute Sex, that he must stop doing so immediately and must be fired from his position as American church president.
If you want to believe these eight assumptions, then that is your choice. But if you accept them, do you really still believe that Father is the returning Messiah? As for me, I choose to believe the words that Father spoke, when he said,
“The last six millennia have been a history of seeking and re-creating one Adam. Eve cannot be created without Adam. This is why God is creating one man, Adam. This is why you must follow me. The blood and flesh of countless people who came and went on the road of the providence of restoration had to be used as material for this purpose. The resentment of zillions of spirit people must be consolidated here. Then on the day of the advent of the incarnation of Adam, the martyrs who shed their blood and died under extreme persecution will feel their value for the first time.
(29-271, 1970.3.11) CSG 723
RP: I do want to congratulate Dan for being willing to engage in this vigorous debate. I do respect him for that.
RP: As for Stephen, I am a little worried about what other crazy idea he will come up with...
MOD: This concludes The Panzer-Fefferman Debate. Note that soon we will open the debate up for your comments. It is suggested that you read the entire debate first before commenting. Thank you for sitting in and thanks to our two steadfast debaters, Dr. Richard Panzer and Dan Fefferman, who taught us that important issues can be discussed in a clear, concise, and respectful manner.
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