MOD: Section #6 is officially over. We now begin with Dr. Panzer giving his opening statement on topic # 6: Which is the superior governance document – the FFWPU CIG Constitution or the SC CIG Constitution – and why?
RP: Regarding the Unification Sanctuary Constitution, I like the fact that it first of all is based on the 3 articles that Father proclaimed of keeping purity, not misusing funds, and not abusing citizens. Second, it incorporates a clear role for the King that Father anointed. Father said that democracy is based on "popularism" meaning that eventually the elected leaders, in order to keep and to increase their power vote to give benefits to special interest groups, even when it damages the well-being of the whole. In the Sanctuary constitution, the King has a role in approving judges recommended by the Senate, but has no power to declare war and no power over spending. In other words, it is similar in some ways to a Constitutional Monarchy in Great Britain. The King's authority is mainly based on his living and advocating a moral life. http://sanctuary-pa.org/index.php/declaration/
DF: The fact that the FFWP constitution can be amended is its saving grace. I cannot accept it as it stands because it does not protect religious freedom and freedom of speech. On the other hand the CIG-USA constitution decreed by the "New King" Moon Hyungjin is even worse, because it gives the king virtually absolute hereditary power, including the exclusive power to appoint Supreme Court Judges, declare a state of emergence and rule by decree, and even the power to overturn laws passed by the Congress and upheld by the Court - that the king himself appointed!
So they are both unacceptable as constitutions of a nation. However, the FFWP version is much better, because it COULD be interpreted as a church constitution rather than a national one. And the FFWP version can be amended, which the SC version cannot.
RP- Regarding the issue of making amendments. Many people note that the American constitutional government has been corrupted as the original limits on federal power have been undermined so that the federal government has virtually no limits on its power to tax, regulate what we eat, what kind of health care we can get, get into wars without a declaration by Congress, etc. The provision about no amendments is intended to avoid the undermining of personal freedoms guaranteed in the Unification Sanctuary Bill of Rights, which are: The Bill of Human Rights of Cheon Il Guk
1.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
2.
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.
3.
No soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.
4.
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
5.
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
6.
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.
7.
In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any court of the worldwide "United States of Cheon Il Gook," than according to the rules of the common law.
8.
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.
9.
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
10.
The powers not delegated to the worldwide "United States of Cheon Il Gook" by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or TO THE PEOPLE. AMEN! AJU! AJU!
DF--If you want to throw out the US Constitution in favor of your New King's monarchy you are free to do so. But know this: Father said he was not interested in becoming a Head of State [see Sontag interview]. HgJn goes against Father's express policy here, but saying the that King is indeed the head of state.
And this is no constitutional monarchy you have, Richard. The King of this monarchy dictated its constitution without consulting the people. Moreover , he alone can nominate Supreme Court judges, and perhaps worst of all he can overturn even Supreme court decisions on appeal. That means if he doesn't like their decision, all he has to do is get someone toappeal the decision so her can overturn it. Ditto for laws passed
by congress -- get someone to challenge them, and if the Court
upholds congress' view, he can overturn their decision on appeal.
So like I say, not an absolute monarchy... but very close to it.
I agree that heredity is a terrible basis for determining a ruler,
especially when the king has more than simply ceremonial
authority... and in this case the king does have serious power.
[as does his brother who is appointed as the very powerful Inspector General together with his heirs].
DF: Even if you think Hyung Jin and Kook Jin are pure as the driven snow, why believe that their sons will also be so virtuous. That certainly wasn't the case with TF's sons. We Americans fought a revolution to get rid of a powerful hereditary monarch. Let's not sell our birthright for the pottage of lentils that HgJn is offering. And let's not make our True Father a liar!
Here is the Sontag interview I mentioned where TF says clear he is not interested in being a head of state. He said "I do not think in terms of taking over the power or government of a nation. I am not ambitious to become a senator or the head of state of this or any other country. But as a messenger of God, my responsibility is to relay the message of God to the people who actually run the country and the society, to those who can actually influence the nation.'' http://www.tparents.org/.../sunmy.../SunMyungMoon-770000.htm
RP: Dan, since I doubt that either the Family Fed constitution or the Unification Sanctuary constitution will be adopted in any country soon, I see them more as declarations, except that the FFWPU constitution has real power over the rights, or lack of rights I should say, of real church members.
DF: They are declarations that indicate political philosophies. And HgJN philosophy must be rejected. As the Divine Principle says: "…. The political system underwent a fundamental change at the time of the French and American Revolutions when the government was divided into the three branches, legislative, judicial and executive, and political parties took on distinct roles. With the establishment of constitutional democracy, the framework for the ideal political system was set up.'' http://www.tparents.org/.../Unifi.../Books/dp96/dp96-2-5.htm
RP: Dan, since I doubt that either the Family Fed constitution or the Unification Sanctuary constitution will be adopted in any country soon, I see them more as declarations.
RP: My last comment about this is to encourage Dan and others to get the FFWPU to list the Divine Principle as a core scripture of CIG (article XIV). We could have a big discussion about why it was left out, but just a suggestion.
DF: closing statement... DP says " With the establishment of constitutional democracy, the framework for the ideal political system was set up." That means we already have the framework for the ideal political system. We don't need a new constitution, especially one that establishes a new hereditary monarchy with nearly absolute power. That means we must reject the SC constitution. The FFWP constitution is also flawed, but it can be remedied to amend it so that it is a church constitution not the constitution of a state.
RP- the Sanctuary constitution incorporates nearly the entire U.S. Constitution, but as Father said, has a limited role for the lineal descendant of the Lord of the Second Advent. The Kingdom of Christ does have a real King, or it is not a Kingdom. As we can see from Hyung Jin Nim's choices to walk away from the wealth and riches of the Cheongpyeong palace he has NO INTEREST in secular power or wealth.
MOD: This concludes section # 6. Now Dan Fefferman will present his opening statement on the final topic, # 7: Is TM perfectly united with TF? Explain why or why not? Further, does TM have the authority to change TF’s legacy items (CSG, anthem, the blessing format, pledge, etc.), or not? Explain your reasoning.
DF: During his Cosmic Assembly speeches in 2011-2012 -- his final speaking tour on earth -- TF proclaimed . ''The True Parents have achieved ultimate unity and offered and proclaimed the era of God's full transcendence, full immanence, full authority and omnipotence upon the standard of perfection, completion and conclusion.'' Ultimate unity means ''ultimate unity,'' -- already achieved... especially when it is stands on the standard of "perfection, completions and conclusion"
In introducing this declaration TF said "… All the blessed children in the heavenly and earthly worlds, who are related to the True Parents by blood, should keep this comprehensive and final proclamation in mind." Any spats or disagreements between TM and TF after that are beside the point. Their unity is eternal, unbreakable, and absolute. HgJn cannot divide them. And neither can Richard Panzer, though no doubt he will try.
RP: Sorry to read that you think Hyung Jin Nim (or I) want to divide True Parents. Hyung Jin Nim desperately tried to persuade Mother NOT to divide from Father. The problem is that Mother sees her "perfection" in having the POWER to undo Father's words, covenants, anthem, etc. but the Divine Principle says that perfection comes through Unity of Subject and Object.
RP: Father clearly said NOT to change the Cheon Syeong Gyeong: Hyo Yul (Peter Kim)! [Yes], Can you say 'Let's leave only good things about the Founder (Reverend) Moon for history? Any bad things I will cover up, I'll take responsibility'. Can you say that? Do I have to follow what you say? Hyo Yul, do you have to listen to me or I have to listen to you? You Villain. I told you to publish this and do everything. But you do what? You yourself want to correct it, proofread? Who is going to proofread? You cannot do that!
Because I knew that it could be so, as soon as I came back I read the whole content in the night. Even today I read it a third time before coming out. No one should touch this! Do not touch even a single word! This must be published as it is.
July 14, 2009, The Criteria for Peace
Vol. 614 p. 53 (Korean) 2009. 7. 14. Cheon Jeong Goong, Korea
RP: Now it is all finished. There is nothing left to touch [change]. I immediately know if someone changes even one syllable [in the text] because I read those textbooks several hundred times. You must memorize it all. ‘Owner of peace, owner of lineage’, Cheon Seong Gyeong, Family Pledge, and the World Scriptures. All the textbooks are included for 12 years of Cheon Il Guk.
July 14, 2009 Hoon Dok Hae
North- South Unification seen from the perspective of God’s Providence Chapter 3, paragraphs 3-6.
The Criteria for Peace Vol. 614 p.53 (Korean)
RP: Father bequeathed the 8 Great Textbooks to his heir and successor on April 18, 2008 and gave copies to all the leaders assembled. He made them promise not to change his words. What did they do immediately after he passed on, THEY FOLLOWED MOTHER'S LEAD TO CHANGE HIS WORDS. They were planning to do this even while Father was dying in the hospital.
DF: Richard A. Panzer... not only does HgJn separate TPs [after he declared them to be completely united and also declared TM to be the top decision maker so there should be no confusion about succession}.... but he also pretends that his own wife is now the True Mother instead of our real True Mother. He calls TM "whore" and "idolator". How can you defend this? He even speaks of "lesbian thelogy. And he has lied about a supposed chart showing that TM teaches that Lucifer had sex with Adam, not Eve.
DF: here's the chart I am talking about -- https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/.../12669576...
and here is the translation of the accompanying text that Hyung Jin has hidden from us for several months.
God wanted to embrace Eve
...
The Archangel Lucifer became Satan when he stole the woman (Eve)
The male (man) who stole the woman whom God loved above all = The adulterer of God – of love A being who cannot be forgiven even if he is hung, drawn and quartered. Fallen human beings have to fight against and overcome.
Hyung Jin lied about this chart for months in an effort to create his myth that TM was teaching a "new DP" -- now we can see the truth... there is no "new DP" no "lebian theology"... the chart teaches the same thing that tradition DP teaches
RP: Dan, I just saw your post. The FFWPU has been denying that this diagram even was being used so it's nice to see you admit that it is being used. If the FFWPU wants to clarify how it is using the diagram then it should do so.
RP: I actually agree with you that the diagram is probably talking about the results of the Fall. But even so, why is Eve OUTSIDE the circle of Satan's influence?
RP: Mother had the freedom to create whatever new collections of speeches she wished, but that wasn't good enough. She had to erase Father's collection by creating a new collection with the same name.
RP: My understanding is that the planning to "airbrush" the CSG started at a meeting at the hotel across from St. Mary's hospital. To believe that this was Father's will you have to believe that while Father was in a coma in the hospital he suddenly realized that the CSG was wrong and need to be replaced with an improved, "politically correct" version even while he was dying.
MOD: Dan Fefferman will now present his closing statement on the final topic, #7, followed by Dr. Panzer's closing statement on same.
DF: that's not true. TM was absolutely devoted to TF and has been working with all her heart to protect his legacy. It's HgJN who ambushed her, not the other way around.
DF my closing statement -- First thanks to Steve Henkin for organizing this, and Richard for working with me to clarify things.
True Mother's heart is absolutely devoted to TF. She is completely united with him, just as TF proclaimed and HgJN himself declared several times. It's time for HgJN to grow up and stop this silly, tragic adolescent rebellion against TM. She's not a whore, she's not an attempted murderer, she's not a Jezebel, she's not an adulteress who has spiritual sex with countless "archangels" as he alleges. HgJn usually goes through a new phase every year or two, so I still have hope for him. But he has to grow up, like St Paul said, and put away childish things now that he is coming into his manhood. He is still a young man, but ...At least he needs to do this by the time he turns 40.
Meanwhile, True Mother has stepped up. She's different from TF, but not divided from him. Mansei for our Eternal True Parents... and Long Live True Mother!
No matter how young or youthful the heir is, he is the one who will supervise and control. Likewise, when the inheritance is passed on, it does not matter who is better or worse. When Father hands down this authority in the future, even if that heir is crippled, people must receive the Blessing from that person. That time will come.
Blessing and Ideal Family I Chapter 4: The process of the Blessing under the selection of the spouse and who determines the spouse.
RP: To believe Dan's statements that that Mother is perfect, incapable of making a providential mistake, and totally united with Father after his passing, we would have to accept that when Father arrived in the spirit world in 2012, he suddenly realized or admitted to himself that
1. He was wrong about Mother coming from a Satanic lineage.
2. He was wrong about Mother needing to meet him as the Second Coming of Christ in order to be restored, that in fact she was sinless from birth.
3. He had failed to sufficiently educate members and the world about Mother’s position as the sinless Only Begotten Daughter who was the fruit of all Christian and Korean history.
4. He was wrong to not educate members about the glorious Han lineage.
5. He was wrong to insist that the CSG not be changed. That it in fact needed to be “improved” by removing inappropriate strong, critical statements about Mother and church leaders.
6. Even though he and Mother had anointed and appointed and reappointed Hyung Jin Nim and Yeonah Nim as the heir/successor/inheritor/resident body couple of True Parents in 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011 and 2012, Father suddenly realized that this couple was not qualified and that the appointment must be revoked or delayed until Mother decided Hyung Jin Nim was obedient to her “innovations.”
7. Father realized that Hyung Jin Nim must be immediately fired from all his positions in Korea.
8. Three months later Father realized that it was wrong for Hyung Jin Nim to teach about Absolute Sex, that he must stop doing so immediately and must be fired from his position as American church president.
If you want to believe these eight assumptions, then that is your choice. But if you accept them, do you really still believe that Father is the returning Messiah? As for me, I choose to believe the words that Father spoke, when he said,
“The last six millennia have been a history of seeking and re-creating one Adam. Eve cannot be created without Adam. This is why God is creating one man, Adam. This is why you must follow me. The blood and flesh of countless people who came and went on the road of the providence of restoration had to be used as material for this purpose. The resentment of zillions of spirit people must be consolidated here. Then on the day of the advent of the incarnation of Adam, the martyrs who shed their blood and died under extreme persecution will feel their value for the first time.
(29-271, 1970.3.11) CSG 723
RP: I do want to congratulate Dan for being willing to engage in this vigorous debate. I do respect him for that.
RP: As for Stephen, I am a little worried about what other crazy idea he will come up with...
MOD: This concludes The Panzer-Fefferman Debate. Note that soon we will open the debate up for your comments. It is suggested that you read the entire debate first before commenting. Thank you for sitting in and thanks to our two steadfast debaters, Dr. Richard Panzer and Dan Fefferman, who taught us that important issues can be discussed in a clear, concise, and respectful manner.
MOD: One housekeeping rule before we start, please do not make any comments on the site during the debate. I will have to hide your comments, and if that does not work employ the ban. So please just watch until it ends, then post your reports.
Okay, the debate is going to begin with a coin toss. Heads Dan goes first, tails Richard does. Okay,. guys?
Tails, Richard goes first...and the first topic is...
Mod.
1.) Have the blessings conducted by TM beginning with Foundation Day in 2013 been theologically valid, or not? Explain your answer.
RP: Since I won the coin toss, here is my opening statement. But I choose to let Dan answer the question first and then I will respond.
MOD: Note that visitors to the debate will be able to post their comments once the debate ends. Note there will be a 10 minutes break following the 4th topic.
DF:Yes, they are all valid. True Father said that TM is his representative when he is not here.
RP: The question of whether Mother's blessings since Father's ascension are valid depends on whether Mother is UNITED with Father. There is much evidence, sadly, that she is not. Let’s take a look at Mother’s recent public declarations in her speech, “In Search of the Root of the Universe,” at the 2015 Cheongpyeong Autumn Great Works on October 24, 2015.
In her speech on that day the only reference to True Father is that a rare flower was blooming near his grave. There are however 4 references in her speech to how all of providential history was preparation for her own coming as the sinless Only Begotten Daughter. Here are the 4 quotes about her own status:
1) “Therefore, with resurrection over the two-thousand-year history… That is the history of the Holy Spirit. What you need to be aware of is that this was the foundation to search for the only begotten daughter of God. Do you understand?”
2) “that Christian foundation was the means to search for the only begotten daughter of God. “
3) “God’s providence includes a search for the only begotten daughter of God.”
4) “Korea produced the Second Coming of Christ, the only begotten daughter of God…”
To summarize, there are four references to how all of Christian and Korean history was to produce the “Only Begotten Daughter,” and just one reference to True Father, who was fortunate to have a rare flower growing near his grave.
Because of criticism of Mother claiming that she is the second coming of Christ, the original Japanese translation was changed to insert the word “AND” in the last statement so that it would read “Korea produced the Second Coming of Christ AND the only begotten daughter of God.” This is also what is shown in the English translation, but they cannot change the original Korean, which clearly has the proclamation that the Second Coming of Christ is the Only Begotten Daughter, Hak Ja Han.
Are there any words in Mother’s speech about how grateful she is to have met Sun Myung Moon as her personal Messiah? Or about how we must have an unchanging attitude towards Father’s words, covenants, and directions? Not that I can see.
I realize that many brothers and sisters, who are experiencing cognitive dissonance, will deny the new information or evidence of Mother’s apparent indifference to Father because it is so painful to consider that Mother no longer “believes in [Father] more than in her own father, grandfather or elder brother. “ In fact, her own father’s and grandfather’s lineage receive more praise as part of the glorious Han race than Father or his lineage. But don’t believe me, read the speech for yourself.
MOD: We are waiting for RP to post his opening statement on Topic 1.
Note, everyone, you may need to refresh your computer to see the latest posts.
DF: Posting...Yes, the blessings conducted by TM are completely valid. Father declared that when he is not here, TM represents him. About the unity question, Father declared that he and TM have attained "ultimate unity" and this was also declared by HgJN himself at TF's seong hwa. This quote is from TF's "Cosmic Assembly" speeches which he gave all over the world in 2011 and 2012:-- ''The True Parents have achieved ultimate unity and offered and proclaimed the era of God's full transcendence, full immanence, full authority and omnipotence upon the standard of perfection, completion and conclusion.''
and at TF's seong hwa Hyung Jin himself declared: "Father will guide us for eternity and will conclude the providence through True Mother, who has achieved complete and ultimate unity with him."
RP: Dan, if Mother is completely united with Father, why does she hardly ever mention him? Put ONLY her name inside the Blessing rings?
MOD: Debaters, we can begin the exchange portion of the debate now, with you two questioning and critiquing each others comments.
DF; replies... She singed her name on the blessing rings as an expression of her love for the couples that she blessed. She cannot sign Father's name. It is not true that she "hardly ever mentions him." SC often takes her statements out of context and makes it appear that she promotes only herself but in fact she often speaks of True Father, and prefaces her comments about herself with comments about TF's course.
MOD: If you want to see the entire debate, just look upwards to the previous comment section...
DF: it's obscene that HgJN condemns all the newly blessed couples as "living in sin" and declares them to no longer to be of TP's lineage. Are these these couples really living in sin?
continues These beautiful couples are truly blessed by God. How dare SC members and HgJN accuse them of belonging to Satan! He clearly isn't speaking with God's heart. But TM tells us again and again "Forgive, Love, Unite"... hers is the heart of a True Parent.
RP: Dan, if Mother was totally united with Father, why did he CANCEL the Perfection Level blessing that was supposed to take place on their birthdays in 2012? on August 29, 2011, Father spoke about the future “Perfection Level Blessing of True Parents” that was to take place on his birthday in 2012:
By having the Holy Wedding Ceremony of Perfected True Parents when I become 93
years old and mother becomes 70 years old, we will enter the era in which True Parents will go with all (the Blessed) families heading for a perfected heaven and earth.
Our birthday next year will be for this wedding ceremony…by having the wedding ceremony when True Parents can proclaim their perfection." August 29, 2011, Hoon Dok Hae, Cheon Jeong Gung, Korea
The day prior to this planned Holy Wedding of True Parents in 2012, Father cancelled the wedding. GAVE MOTHER ONE MORE YEAR TO ACHIEVE UNITY.
SINCE FATHER PASSED AWAY BEFORE NEXT BIRTHDAY, the final stage, the Holy Wedding Ceremony of Perfected True Parents (perfection stage wedding) NEVER TOOK PLACE.
RP: Why does Mother so seldom mention anything about Father. On December 6, 2015 in a speech to Japanese members, Mother said:
“You are blessed people. There are 7 billion people in the world, but how is it that you met me. Blessed families have been made through me. Right?” 2015-12-6 Mother’s Speech
Wow, Mother says “You are blessed people. There are seven billion people in the world, but how is it that you met me? Blessed families have been made through me.”
Made through ME? Were blessed families made through one person, Hak Ja Han? Wasn’t there another person involved?
RP: why does she praise her own HAN lineage instead of being proud of the lineage of the LSA that she was engrafted into?
RP: Dan, if we are being engrafted in True Parents' lineage, why does Mother only mention and praise her own?
DF; repsonds... these points are off topic... clearly you can't defend HgJn's position on the topic of the blessing because it is indefensible.
MOD: Time for closing statements. Dr. Panzer, please make yours.
RP: Dan Fefferman is unwilling to respond to the two facts I presented: 1) Father CANCELED the Perfection Level Blessing of True Parents in 2012 because he knew that Mother was NOT united with him. 2) In Mother's recent speeches, she praises ONLY her own HAN lineage and own "sinless birth", not her husband the Messiah.
RP: however she did note that a flower was growing near Father's grave.
DF: Responds sorry I missed the call for closing statements [call of nature]. I've already responded to the claim that TM only speaks of her own lineage etc. It simply isn't true. To conclude on this topic... True Mother's blessings are absolutely valid, and HygJN is absolutely wrong to condemn them and to place us who affirm their validity on "God's curse." This is so out of touch with God's heart that it boggles the imagination.
RP: I think this discussion is related to that of who the successor /heir of Father really is...
RP: the question of why Father canceled the perfection level blessing in 2012 is important for Dan and all of us to learn about.
RP: Father obviously thought it was important.
MOD: Dan Fefferman will make an opening statement on topic number 2.) Is there too much emphasis on relating to the leadership in the movement today in the era of Cheon Il Guk and not enough on emphasizing the position of Blessed Central Families as tribal messiahs and their personal relationship to God, or not? Explain your position based on whose side you are advocating: TM or SC.
DF: Yes, there is too much emphasis on leadership in both the UC and the SC. But much more so in the SC, where you are condemned to hell if you don't follow the "New King." For me and most UC members, our experience of church community is local. That is where the rubber meets the road. In my own community we have weekly meetings to encourage tribal messiahship, a weekly "Life True Cafe" meeting where many new guests are coming and many other small group ministries. Not every community has these programs yet, but I agree that tribal messiah and one's personal relationship with God are the real keys.
RP: Each of us has our own portion of responsibility to do our tribal messiah work. On the other hand Father was very clear that he would appoint a successor/heir to carry on the central providence. One thing I love about Hyung Jin Nim's ministry is that he often gives spiritual guidance in how to deepen our relationship with God. In just a few weeks several brothers and sisters will be leading local and online courses on topics according to their own interest. Jim and Hiromi Stephens are leading one on God's Plan for Men, Women and Sexuality. I'm leading one on Economics of CIG.
And, it's not just about "activities." Connecting with God's spirit in our own lives is VERY important.
I haven't felt God's love and spirit as strongly as I now do since I joined the UC more than 40 years ago.
There is support for deepening intimacy in marriage and much other guidance that I find personally helpful.
MOD: Audience, to see the entire debate as it unfolds, click previous comments, above.
RP: In case Dan or anyone is interested, here is a link for spiritual guidance that is very positive.
https://vimeo.com/channels/1000785
RP: so yes, our local personal partnership with God is important regardless of what any hierarchy is doing, so we need to keep on investing in our spiritual lives and relationship with God.
DF: Here [Richard remember to sign your posts].... In FFWP there has been a movement away from centralization for several years. We elect our own pastors now, and the age of blindly following Korean leaders has passed. I too feel God's love in my local community to a greater degree than I have in years. Comparing FFWP and SC in that sense is a little like comparing apples and oranges. SC is still a relatively small group, but FFWP is a large movement/institution. So only time will tell of HgJN does a better job that True Parents did in terms of creating a world movement where God's spirit dwells.
RP: I guess my point is that Hyung Jin Nim and Yeonah Nim are investing to create a culture of learning that I consider to be very healthy. It's sad that the FFWPU tells brothers and sisters not to listen or see any of these, because the content is quite deep and rich, and beneficial for one's personal and family life, as well as tribal messiah activities.
RP: for instance, I feel closer now to Christian brothers and sisters than I have for many decades. He's breaking down a lot of barriers...
RP: If we want to bring people closer to God, we have to start with ourselves.
DF: Responds.... I like HgJn's local leadership style. He's gifted that way. But on the larger level he asserts his leadership by declaring himself "New King" and telling FFWP members they are under God's curse for following True Mother. Sorry... but that is not how True Father led. He taught us that we should always respect other people's faith and never condemn them. Meanwhile, TM has been extremely patient, and teaches us to "Forgive, Love, Unite" just as TF did. http://www.tparents.org/.../HakJaHanM.../HakJaHan-140812.pd
RP: I'd like to invite Dan to take one of the courses if he has time, as my personal guest.
MOD: Okay, Dan, time for your closing statement on TOPIC 2. Okay?
RP: Dan, interesting that Mother and FFWPU tell people to "forgive, love and unite" while threatening and excommunicating people if they attend SC services.
RP: The persecution of SC supporters in Korea and Japan is UNBELIEVABLE. But the veneer of benevolence is cracking...
MOD: Remember to refresh your computers on a regular basis so as to not miss content.
DF: It's time for us to move beyond the leader-centered movement to the era of tribal messiahship and home church. FFWP under TM is moving in that direction. HgJN and SC are all about "we're right and those who don't agree are going to hell."
RP: underneath the beautiful words, is something else. Yes, Hyung Jin Nim speaks strongly, but at least you know what he really thinks, and there are no bullying threats as with FFWPU.
RP: while I'm waiting, I'd like to praise Dan for doing this forum with me. Several UTS professors were told to have nothing to do with me. And UTS websites refuse to post anything that even considers what Hyung Jin Nim is saying. Is that "benevolent"? Is that along the lines of "forgive, love, unite?"
You would think that since UTS is less than 2 hours away from SC, they would come and talk directly to Hyung Jin Nim. Where is the integrity of the institution that Father founded?
Where they allow only one side to be presented?
MOD: Now for Topic # 3, with Dr. Panzer giving his opening statement on: Who should be TF's successor now, and why?
RP: The question as to who should be Father's successor should be answered by FATHER. Here are some statements he made, starting in 2008 and continuing until his last year on earth. "Father, people were unaware of the fact that when midnight comes after the passing of early evening, the shining hope of tomorrow that is the True Parent, the True Teacher, and the True King, the representative of the kingship of hope, and the authority of the heir to that kingship, is here." “At this time of transition today, this occasion is one where they can inherit the authority as the representatives and heirs who can attend to everything on behalf of True Parents.” April 28, 2008, Hyung Jin Nim's "Inaguration" Ceremony, Korea
RP: “Today, at this time, there must only be one line of authority. The center, centered on Korea or on the world, over the entire Unification Church will stretch out and become larger. From now, I can leave someone in charge of my work on my behalf. Currently, there is no one among our church members who surpasses Hyung Jin in his standard of faith or in any other way. Do you understand? I am appointing him.” (April 18, 2008)
RP: I strongly encourage EVERYONE to watch videos of Father/True Parents crowning Hyung Jin Nim and Yeonah Nim and LISTEN to Father's prayers and blessings on this couple. https://vimeo.com/channels/996731
MOD: Dr. Panzer, please begin all your posts with RP.
RP: I'll let Dan respond.
DF: True Father said several times that when he is not with us, TM represents him. Even HgJn himself recognized that "As long as he is here, he {TF} is the top decision maker. If he is not here, then my mother is the top decision maker. Because of my mother’s presence, there is no confusion regarding succession in Unificationism." To spin Father's words otherwise now shows that HgJN speaks with a forked tongue.
DF: continues... True Parents cannot be divided. There can be no successor of TP until Mother joins Father in the spirit world. [all for now]
MOD: With that, let us begin the back-and-forth exchange section of Topic # 3. Richard goes first.
RP: Yes, Mother was supposed to represent Father after his ascension to the spirit world, but tragically instead of lifting up Father as his object she seeks to declare her own "sinless birth," her own glorious "Han lineage," etc. Mother's victory only comes from her unity with her subject, but she says that it would be an insult to have been educated by Father: Nobody educated me. God’s only begotten son and God’s only be gotten daughter are equal. You cannot say that God’s only begotten son educated God’s only begotten daughter. Do you understand what I am saying?" Ref: (At Special Meeting for World Leaders on October 27, 2014 in Cheon Jeong Gung)
DF: Responds...Father made it clear that the TC are to succeed TPs only AFTER True Parents themselves ascend. ""Who is going to be [my] successor?" people ask. But I tell them there is no need to worry because Mrs. Moon, our True Mother, is only 47 years old! And AFTER US there are the true children to carry on God's Providence. ''
RP -- Even Mrs. Eu confirmed that Mother was not united with Father. In Houston she contradicts Mother's bizarre claim that she learned nothing from Father.
RP: and in Minneapolis, she made it CRYSTAL CLEAR that Mother was not united with Father in appointing Hyung Jin Nim.
MOD: Dan/Richard: Post your initials at the start of your comments.
RP: so if Mother is NOT united with Father in such important issues, how can she claim to represent him?
RP: even the FFWPU does not believe the things that Mother is saying. Fascinating that Mike Jenkins was unwilling to defend or support Mother's claim to have been born sinless.
RP: Dan, do you believe Mother's statements about being born sinless, not being educated by Father?
DF: RIchard you completely misunderstand TM's heart when she made the comment that "nobody educated me" [not that she learned nothing from TF.] This quote from TF makes it clear.... he says directly that he did NOT educate her about her role as TM. That she had to figure it out for herself "I never said to Mother, "You must understand this, persevere and win because I am doing this on purpose." If I had explained and comforted in that way, then even though she had won, it would not have been valuable. Mother had to figure it our herself, persevere in her own understanding, in her own right.'' http://www.tparents.org/Moon.../sunmyungmoon77/SM770503.htm
RP: Are you willing to defend Mother's claims since Mike Jenkins was not?
DF: Father himself said he didn't discuss TM's course with her, and that she had to figure it out for herself.
Hopefully we can get to the "born sinless" issue later.
MOD: Richard Panzer will now present his closing statement for section 3. Note that following the next section, #4, the debate will take a 15-minute official break, after which it will resume through the final 3 topics.
RP: Dan, what is Mother's heart when she says "You cannot say that God’s only begotten son educated God’s only begotten daughter."? Why does she think we "cannot say"? This statement makes it clear that Mother thinks it would be an INSULT to have been educated by Father. Strange appreciation for the man who died 7 times for her and all of us.
RP: Dan and the FFWPU think that if they repeat the mantra "True Parents are One" we won't notice the things that Mother HERSELF is saying. And Dan has not responded to the things that Mrs. Eu is saying as she goes around the country. Watch the videos! Mrs. Eu herself makes it CLEAR that Mother was not united with Father. I am not happy to say this. In fact I hate saying this, but if brothers and sisters look at these things and PRAY about it, they will know what is true.
MOD: Everyone, remember to regularly refresh your machines.
RP: I could say a lot more, but that's enough for now.
DF: Her heart, as I understand it, is exactly what Father said: "If I had explained and comforted in that way, then even though she had won, it would not have been valuable. Mother had to figure it out herself, persevere in her own understanding, in her own right.'' She is standing in her own right and it IS an insult for people to denigrate her and say that Father educated her on these points when he himself declared her to be victorious in her own right, without his teaching her.
To conclude, TM is Father's representative today... not really his successor, because they, as TP, are still with us. Just as HgJn stated: she is top decision maker after TF, and there should be NO CONFUSION about this.
RP: True Parents are ONE?
RP: I agree, perhaps you should tell that to MOTHER!
MOD: And now, we have Dan Fefferman presenting the opening statement for topic # 4, which is: 4.) Is TM God’s only begotten daughter? Was TM born sinless? Is TM the Messiah?
MOD: REMINDER: We will take a 15-minute break after section 4.
DF: Yes. TM holds the title of God's Only Begotten Daughter. This is a title that True Father himself coined. You can find it in first chapter the original edition of the CSG where he says that "When the only begotten son comes, it would be a disaster if he were to live alone. There has to be an only begotten daughter. "
TM has said that the change of blood lineage occurred in her mother's womb. I had not heard that before she said so recently. It's something I have to consider. After all to be "reborn" one needs a person in the position of the Holy Spirit and True Mother cannot give rebirth to herself. Given that TF has spoken at length about the special conditions of TM's birth [I will speak of this below], it's definitely possible that she was indeed born sinless.
Is she the Messiah? Well, not the unique only messiah, but Father has said the messiah is a couple, not just a man alone. So yes, she's the messiah in that sense.
RP: Actually, there is one point of agreement that Dan and I have. Both of us agree that Father did use the term, "Only Begotten Daughter" to refer to Mother.
Where I have a disagreement is Mother's use of that term to proclaim her own "glorious Han race" and that she was born sinless whereas Father was only "restored" when he met Jesus.
RP: I do have a question for Dan: "If father had not chosen Hak Ja Han, would she have been known in history as the only begotten daughter?" No. She took that position only because Father chose her.
RP: Father made it clear that in order for restoration to take place, a woman of fallen lineage had to be his bride: “Mother came from the lineage of the fallen archangel. To do this I had to go forward with Absolute Faith, Absolute Love and Absolute Obedience. Therefore I came this far with that kind of belief and faith. Since she came from the fallen lineage I had to go completely the opposite way of the universe. I had to deny everything.”
October 1, 2003, Hoon Dok Hae, New Yorker Grand Ballroom
DF: Richard, you continue to ascribe arrogance to TM when it's really not there. True Father himself explained the conditions that were accomplished in her lineage: "There had been seven generations of only sons born in True Mother's maternal lineage. Grandmother Cho, Soon-ae Hong, and True Mother (Hak Ja Han) were then born as only daughters in each subsequent generation, establishing the foundation for the bride." http://www.tparents.org/.../SunM.../SunMyungMoon-Life-25.htm
MOD: Okay, opening statements for section 4 have been concluded. We now continue the exchange section with Dan Fefferman.
DF: Father hasn't spoken so specifically about his own lineage. But if its true [and he HAS said that he had to inherit Jesus' foundation] then in my opinion that makes him all the greater... because was is much more difficult for him that for TM.
DF: Of course it is true that TF's first wife was also a potential Only Begotten Daughter. Just as John the Baptist's sister [acc to TF] was originally chosen and very specially born/prepared, so was TF's first wife. God always prepares a secondary course, and TM is the one who fulfilled the role, so naturally she rightfully holds the title of Only Begotten daughter.
RP: Dan, if you read "Peace Loving Global Citizen" Father makes it VERY CLEAR how much he wanted to keep his first marriage with Seon Gil Choi. I do not believe that she was predestined to fail, so Mother's claim to have been born sinless makes no sense. "I acceded to the demands of her family and placed my stamp on the divorce document. I was pushed into a divorce against my own principles."-True Father on the subject of Seon Gil Choi.
RP: If Mother was truly the one destined to marry Father, why actually marry another woman first? Father obviously does not believe in or advocate divorce, so why marry Seon Gil Choi before going on to marry Han Hak Ja? It just doesn't make sense.
• Seon Gil Choi was very Christian, too: "The influence of her own family, which was strongly Christian-" (Pg. 134 As a Peace Loving Global Citizen) So was she an Only Begotten Daughter, as well? Who's lying here, True Father or Han Mother?
DF: Of course it is true that TF's first wife was also a potential Only Begotten Daughter. Just as John the Baptist's sister [acc to TF] was originally chosen and very specially born/prepared, so was TF's first wife. God always prepares a secondary course, and TM is the one who fulfilled the role, so naturally she rightfully holds the title of Only Begotten daughter.
RP: I do not deny that Mother made many efforts during her decades at Father's side. That is why it is all the more painful to see her feeling the need to "prove" something now that Father is in the spirit world.
RP: Yes, on that you and I agree, Dan. Mother can use that title. The problem is the WAY in which she is using the title.
DF: Responding to post about TM acting like she needs to prove something --She's being attacked on several fronts, Richard -- even by her own sons... who try to relegate her to the role of "Dowager Queen." No wonder she has to assert herself.
DF: OK... my closing statement.
MOD: Dan Fefferman will now give his closing statement on section 4.
Dan Fefferman's closing statement. We've agreed that Only Begotten Daughter refers to TM. I believe two other women were also chosen to receive this title, but TM is the one who proved victorious. I am uncertain as to whether she was born without original sin, but it does seem to be within the realm of possibility given what TF said about her special lineage [7 gens of only-sons followed by 3 gens of only-daughters, plus the great faith of TM's mother and grandmother]. Finally I think she is definitely one half of the messianic couple --as Father affrimed many times---... so she as equal rights with TF to use the term messiah or Lord/Lady of the Second Advent.
RP: Dan, how would you feel if Susan started to make statements about how great she was? I'm sure that as a generous husband who is proud of his wife, that would be fine with you. But what if she followed up those statements which ones portraying you as less than her? Wouldn't you think that she was insecure and "off-center"?
DF: Susan IS great!!!! As TF said, everyone wants their spouse to be better than they are. In some ways TM is indeed greater that TF. In other ways he's greater. They are BOTH great in my book.
DF: And if Susan were being attacked as a whore, a lesbian theology exponent, an idolator etc -- as HgJN attacks TM -- then I hope she would fire back on all cylinders.... and she's a strong Irish Lady, so believe me, don't cross her~
RP: The Family Federation is not even willing to explain or defend Mother's statement about being born sinless while Father was not. And I don't see you rushing to defend or explain her statement either. Here is Mike Jenkin's non-defense where he says "it is a mystery" that make take another 2,000 years to understand." Even Andrew Wilson, premier advocate of Mother God theology runs away from explaining Mother's claim.
DF; I did explain it RIchard. I showed how Father himself praised TMs lineage of 7 gens of only sons followed by 3 gens of only daughters, and also that he praised the great faith of TM's mother and grandmother.
RP: Dan, I agree that Susan is greater than you and that you were a lucky guy. And I agree that Father wanted his wife to be greater than he. But one does not become greater by comparing yourself to your spouse by praising yourself and putting your spouse down.
RP: to conclude I'd like to share a quote where Father expressed concern that Mother might not "lift him up" after he went to the spirit world. The Substantial God / God incarnate attends to the God of Night. I put Mother in that position and she must attend to me as I did to the God of Night. She is like my physical body. Even if Mother goes up to that position (of the God of Day) she must now that there is the God of Night upon her. She, putting me on the top of the God of Day, must be able to attend to me as the God of Night. When it is done, everything is fully finished. IF MOTHER DOES NOT KNOW THIS, I WILL NOT GO TO THAT POSITION." True Father, April 12, 2011.
RP: Yes, Father was generous in praising Mother's lineage. I wish she would follow his example.
MOD: This concludes the first 4 debate topics. We will now take an official break until 4:30 p.m., EST, when we will conclude the final 3 topics. See you then!
MOD: Note that following the debate, visitors will be able to post comments and reply to other concerning the debate.
MOD: Now we resume the debate with Dr. Panzer presenting his opening statement on topic #5: What should TM's role now be in the providence: leading the world church and conducting blessings; or supporting Hyung Jin Nim in his role as world leader with he and his wife conducting blessings, while TM reunites the True Family, or something else? Explain your reasoning.
RP: Please forgive me if I point out something painful to think about relating to this question of what should Mother's role be in the providence at this time.
RP: Consider that one of Mother's first acts after taking power following Father's Seonghwa was to FIRE her youngest son from ALL of his positions in Korea. This is a curious action given the motto she often repeats about "forgive, love, unite." How did she apply this when firing her youngest son? Here is a video clip where Yeonah Nim explains the bizarre way this firing took place. I have A LOT more to say, but I would like to ask Dan if Mother's actions in FIRING her anointed son from ALL of his positions fits with his concept of Mother's providential role to bring unity within the True Family? IS THIS "FORGIVE, LOVE, UNITE?"
MOD: Notice to debaters: Please keep all statements, opening and closing, confined to one posting.
DF: True Mother's role is pretty much up to her in my opinion. If Hyung Jin Nim were supporting her, she could have gradually stepped back and allowed him and Yeon Ah Nim to have a greater role. Instead, he failed understand her heart of unity with TF and began accusing her the most heinous crimes imaginable. But even if HgJn were supporting her, I’m really glad she has been teaching us more about the Motherly side of God’s nature, and sharing her heart with us about her own course etc. I think she’s doing a great job.
About "firing" HgJN. She did not fire HgJn after TF's seong wha. She sent him to rescue us in America in the wake of the In Jin fiasco. During that time he remained the International President. Eventually she called him back to Korea but he refused to go... then he established his own church against her wishes. Only when it became clear that he was strongly disunited with her, even opposing and criticizing her openly, did she have him removed from his office. A video while we wait...
RP: Given that Hyung Jin Nim made NO PUBLIC STATEMENTS until 2 1/2 years after he was fired, Dan, how is it logical that Mother FIRED HIM 2 1/2 YEARS BEFORE he made any "accusations" of "most heinous crimes imaginable"? Was this like the "Minority Report" movie where Mother determined that although he had done nothing to undermine her in any way and was ACTUALLY TRYING TO HELP HER TO BE VICTORIOUS she "knew" that he would in the future 2.5 years make negative public comments? Here again is a video where Yeonah Nim explains the efforts he and she made to HELP Mother.
MOD: Dan, time for you to begin the exchange portion of topic #5.
DF: As I said, TM did not fire HyJn when Richard claims she did [shortly after TF's passing]. She sent him to the US to help us in the wake INJN's demise. He helped us a lot during that period. I was a big supporter! Then after about 6 months she called him back to Korea. He refused to obey her. Then he began criticizing her openly [not on the internet but speaking to lots of people including me personally]. Naturally this concerned her, especially after he created his own church against his wishes and started making a new tradition that had nothing to do with TF's teachings -- baptisms, 911 conspiracy theories, prepper stuff. He wasn't relieved of his position as international president until early 2015,
DF: .. He then fired everyone she had appointed. Started calling her Whore of Babylon, adulteress, goddess worshiper, lesbian theologian, Jezebel... Donald Trump couldn't have dreamed this stuff up!
DF: Who among us hasn't had our mission changed by TP? You'd think that Hyung Jin would be humble enough to return to Korea and go the course of a filial son... win TM heart... remain in position of influence. Instead, he failed to see her as God did, left his proper position, tried to reverse dominion, and in so doing multiplied evil.
RP: Dan, you can ignore the fact that Hyung Jin Nim was FIRED from ALL of his positions in Korea in 2012 if you choose to. I'm glad to see that we both are proud of the things he accomplished during his short time as the American president, including initiating local, self-governing councils and teaching about Absolute Sex. Unfortunately Mother was not a big fan and ordered him to immediately stop teaching about that. As everyone knows, Hyung Jin Nim was fired from his position as American UC president after only a few months for the "crime" of wanting to teach about Absolute Sex, and having an honest, open discussion about the 6 Marys. Here is the video where Yeonah Nim explains the bizarre way in which he was fired as American UC president.
RP: Dan, it's interesting to see you support the "official story" that FFWPU wants everyone to accept, that he was only fired in 2015 after he started to speak out openly. Unfortunately, there are board minutes of HSAUWC votes to fire him in Korea and to fire him here in the U.S. Since you are a passionate believer in the official story, why don't you join with me in calling for HSAUWC in both countries to release their board minutes to see if they voted to fire him in 2012 and in 2013 or not? To conclude, here is a video where Yeonah Nim explains MOTHER'S REFUSAL TO MEET WITH HYUNG JIN NIM WHEN HE TRIED TO RECONCILE. Also note that the "price" of meeting her was her requirement that he endorse the horrific Family Fed CIG Constitution.
DF; Teaching about Absolute Sex wasn't the problem, it was teaching about it every single Sunday. Let's face it, he goes through phases. First it was Buddha-nim, then new Agey guided meditations, then bowing 10,000 times to golden statues of TPs, then Absolute Sex, Absolute Sex, Absolute Sex, then "let's all get baptized and be Christians so we can truly know TPs"... The kid was clearly not ready for prime time. He needed more training. He should have humbled himself and gone back to Korea when TM asked.
DF: 4Now it's all this prepper stuff... building bomb shelters [are you one of the chosen families who gets to survive the holocaust with him?]... appointing "kinghts and ladies" and arming them with guns, jumping on the "Shmitah" bandwagon and predicting a huge financial collapse that never happened... and now doubling down and saying it's really this year not last year.
MOD: Dan Fefferman will now present his closing statement for section # 5.
RP: Dan, I doubt that either you or I are qualified to talk about world economics or finances. Let's stick to things we hopefully know something about...
DF: I'll tell you who is REALLY not qualified to talk about it... HgJN! The fact that he buys this Smitah nonsense is ample proof.
RP: But if you take the course on "Economics of CIG" then you and I might become more economically savvy. http://sanctuary-pa.org/index.php/hsu/
RP： There is still time for you and I to become millionaires....
DF: Closing statement for this round. True Mother's role is to represent the True Parents on earth. She alone is in the best position to judge what she should be doing. Her style is not the same as TF's, but she understands his heart better than anyone. As TF said "True Mother knows all my secrets". Just as with TF, we may not understand every single thing she says or does. But speaking for me and my house, we support her. She is still my True Mother, not the Whore of Babylon. She is still the font of God's blessing together with TF, not a idolator drunk on the blood of the saints as HgJN says she is. My conclusion-- God Bless True Mother. And Long May She Live!!!
RP: especially if we join forces..
RP: Many people, including Dan, have noted the hierarchical and dictatorial nature of the FFWPU CIG constitution. To give just one example, all of the departments created in the Family Fed constitution can be investigated, EXCEPT THE "SUPREME COUNCIL" WHICH, SURPRISE-SURPRISE, CANNOT BE INVESTIGATED. I'll stop here and give Dan a chance to respond.
[4回]
